I told a dear friend the other day about my attempts to dialogue with the fictional George....and how carefully I was trying to convey openness and respect. Then I had to laugh because the only ones who would probably read my post, and the rest of my blog are all atheists who, with the exception of CI, think religion is purely evil! Ah. Well. Time for a new topic I think.
My new topic is still forming but it has to do with the devil in my living room, and in my food and in my car and in my clothes. I'll post on this more later.
I also want to post on my reoccuring dream...which I had again last night. I've been having variations of this dream for the past 15 years!!!! It's different every time but the basic plot is the same.
But as for right now, I'm going to get ready for this week. Kids back in school and the madness starts up again (piano, scouts, volunteering, karate, etc etc etc) and I've got several new clients starting up this week. Time to roll up my sleeves.
I'll be back!
Sunday, January 4, 2009
Saturday, January 3, 2009
yes....it's that time of year again!
Still 2 am, and I still shouldn't be blogging. But before I finally go to sleep, I feel compelled to start my news years resolutions list....
1-Read more Dr. Oz (and keep reading until I understand it enough to change my lifestyle...yes I DO think Dr. Oz is a prophet)
2-Wear more lipstick
3-Keep a tight fence around work, and not let it bleed into my leisure time.
4-Play more.
5-Meditate more
6-Observe my thoughts more closely, (especially my thought trains)
7-Find new and interesting music (I'm bored with my playlists)
8-Learn basic drawing
9-Have more meaningful conversations....especially with my children
10-Floss regularly
1-Read more Dr. Oz (and keep reading until I understand it enough to change my lifestyle...yes I DO think Dr. Oz is a prophet)
2-Wear more lipstick
3-Keep a tight fence around work, and not let it bleed into my leisure time.
4-Play more.
5-Meditate more
6-Observe my thoughts more closely, (especially my thought trains)
7-Find new and interesting music (I'm bored with my playlists)
8-Learn basic drawing
9-Have more meaningful conversations....especially with my children
10-Floss regularly
Part three
I'm afraid George, this is where we will probably part ways. This is where every conversation like this goes downhill...fast. This is where we stop listening to each other (assuming we ever did) and all we can hear is the white noise in our own heads. I don't know where to begin, and I think I am afraid to try.
How about we not go there.
That is what we always decide. Instead of going there, we stay on the surface where it is nice and safe. We don't dig through the shit and the muck because then we'll get dirty. Instead we play nice, smile and pass the salt.
It's 2 am. I shouldn't be blogging. But it's bothered me that I've left this dialogue just hanging. Why can't I ever finish it...even with a fictional person??
How about we say,.....it doesn't matter what and how our beliefs differ. But please don't try to use logic to convince me of what you have come to believe is truth when what I see is a reliance on logical fallacies...such as....appeal to fear, appeal to emotion, and post hoc to name just a few. You can't try to use evidence to your advantage and then tell me evidence doesn't apply when it doesn't swing in your favor. Not everything that isn't faith promoting, is anti or threatening to your beliefs. There is so so so much out there that is fascinating, motivating, beautiful...and it is both tangible and unknowable.
Ugh. Forget it. Could you pass the salt please?
How about we not go there.
That is what we always decide. Instead of going there, we stay on the surface where it is nice and safe. We don't dig through the shit and the muck because then we'll get dirty. Instead we play nice, smile and pass the salt.
It's 2 am. I shouldn't be blogging. But it's bothered me that I've left this dialogue just hanging. Why can't I ever finish it...even with a fictional person??
How about we say,.....it doesn't matter what and how our beliefs differ. But please don't try to use logic to convince me of what you have come to believe is truth when what I see is a reliance on logical fallacies...such as....appeal to fear, appeal to emotion, and post hoc to name just a few. You can't try to use evidence to your advantage and then tell me evidence doesn't apply when it doesn't swing in your favor. Not everything that isn't faith promoting, is anti or threatening to your beliefs. There is so so so much out there that is fascinating, motivating, beautiful...and it is both tangible and unknowable.
Ugh. Forget it. Could you pass the salt please?
Tuesday, December 30, 2008
we interrupt this program....
I am in such a terrible funk right now. I believe I am suffering from lethargic monkey mind. So unmotivated to do anything productive but I keep giving it a half hearted effort anyway. My kids have turned into playstation zombies and its so quiet around the house I have a hard time mustering the energy to shake them from their spell. What do I need??? A can of Red Bull? Another chocolate? Heavens no. I need to rid my house of Christmas. I'm stuck in holiday mode. Throw out all left over sweets. Take the tree down. Untrim the mantel. Stash the stockings. Disrobe the shrubs. Christmas is OVER baby.
Yes. That's what I need.
Meanwhile...while I deChristmasfy our house, I'm thinking of part three.
Yes. That's what I need.
Meanwhile...while I deChristmasfy our house, I'm thinking of part three.
Monday, December 29, 2008
Part Two
What is an argument? Let's say an argument is a stated claim which is supported by one or more underlying premises. What are premises? How about we say that a premise is a statement meant to interpret some reality, whether true, false, or a mixture of both. When these statements are strong enough or "true" enough to support the claim, we could say that this is a valid argument, maybe we could even call it a fact. But there are number of problems that can occur when making an argument. There could be factual errors, a misrepresentation of data, facts and details. Or there could be errors in reasoning, or how we manipulate and combine the supportive statements and the conclusions we draw from them. Errors in logical reasoning seem to be so easy to make but so hard to recognize.
But one could make the argument that when discussing things of a spiritual, religious, or metaphysical nature, logic need not be part of the equation. Faith is not limited by logical constraints. Faith is much larger than this. Faith is transcendent. Faith is all encompassing. Faith exists even in the heart of a disbeliever. Remember..there ain't no atheists in a foxhole. Therefore, faith claims do not have to play by the same rules as do the secular claims.
To this I would say...nice try George.
A claim is a claim is a claim....and logic belongs in the debate regardless of whether you are arguing for cold fusion, or Heavenly Mother. State your claim and support it with what lead you to this conclusion. If it is solid, it will withstand the harshest scrutiny.
But there are problems with differing opinions on what is considering factual statements when it comes to religious claims. Largely because what is considered truthful by the faithful is not measurable or observable. This is where that concept of faith sneaks back in and when religion lays down the trump card, the get out of jail free card...the "I don't need no stinkin' logic because I feel the burning bosom" card. But still, before the burning bosom, some idea was articulated either verbally or in written form to you and it made it's way into your cranium. This idea bounced around in there, the brain held it out, studied it, made associations with it and decided it was good which stimulated the emotional brain to send out the feel good stuff. Maybe it decided it was good because this message has been repeated over and over and over to you since you were born. Maybe it decided it was good because the person who delivered the idea was someone you love and trust and this benevolance was transferred to the idea. Maybe it decided it was good because you are bathed in a culture that thinks this idea is a good thing. Or maybe the idea makes sense to you and fulfills a need in you, maybe it helps you lead a better life. Maybe life would be better or easier for you if this idea was good. Or...maybe it is as you have suggested..the idea itself is good, true and real.
I'd like to ask you George to set aside the view of your religion as a set of principles dictated to man from God, and consider that religion is in essense a set of ideas. A set of ideas that you believe have come from God. You can still hold that belief. But I'm asking you to set aside the issue of origin for just a minute. I'm not asking you to deny your belief, I'm only asking you to narrow your focus slightly. Just isolate the ideas themselves, or the claims that are represented in this set of ideas. I find it's very difficult to have a discussion with a believer because a believer often tends to back their ideas with a divine authority by citing what a prophet has said or written, a prophet who got it straight from the big guy Himself. (you did this too George). Since I don't believe in divine authority I don't know what to do with this or where to begin. We aren't starting from the same place so of course we'll never end in the same place. Which, despite our claims that we aren't trying to convince each other, I think it would feel good to come to some kind of agreement. Even if it is only partial concession.
So..I'm proposing that we find some common ground from which to start. A place where we both find agreement. I'd like to say that religion is a well polished set of ideas. Ideas that are codified and cannonized. Ideas that are well organized and protected. I'll allow for the possibility that these ideas came to men through a form of inspiration from a divine being. I don't personally believe this, but because I can't disprove it, I'll concede that it is a possiblity. But if we're looking for common ground, it is necessary for us to set aside this question of origin and focus on the ideas themselves and how one comes to adopt these ideas. That is where I' d like to start.
But one could make the argument that when discussing things of a spiritual, religious, or metaphysical nature, logic need not be part of the equation. Faith is not limited by logical constraints. Faith is much larger than this. Faith is transcendent. Faith is all encompassing. Faith exists even in the heart of a disbeliever. Remember..there ain't no atheists in a foxhole. Therefore, faith claims do not have to play by the same rules as do the secular claims.
To this I would say...nice try George.
A claim is a claim is a claim....and logic belongs in the debate regardless of whether you are arguing for cold fusion, or Heavenly Mother. State your claim and support it with what lead you to this conclusion. If it is solid, it will withstand the harshest scrutiny.
But there are problems with differing opinions on what is considering factual statements when it comes to religious claims. Largely because what is considered truthful by the faithful is not measurable or observable. This is where that concept of faith sneaks back in and when religion lays down the trump card, the get out of jail free card...the "I don't need no stinkin' logic because I feel the burning bosom" card. But still, before the burning bosom, some idea was articulated either verbally or in written form to you and it made it's way into your cranium. This idea bounced around in there, the brain held it out, studied it, made associations with it and decided it was good which stimulated the emotional brain to send out the feel good stuff. Maybe it decided it was good because this message has been repeated over and over and over to you since you were born. Maybe it decided it was good because the person who delivered the idea was someone you love and trust and this benevolance was transferred to the idea. Maybe it decided it was good because you are bathed in a culture that thinks this idea is a good thing. Or maybe the idea makes sense to you and fulfills a need in you, maybe it helps you lead a better life. Maybe life would be better or easier for you if this idea was good. Or...maybe it is as you have suggested..the idea itself is good, true and real.
I'd like to ask you George to set aside the view of your religion as a set of principles dictated to man from God, and consider that religion is in essense a set of ideas. A set of ideas that you believe have come from God. You can still hold that belief. But I'm asking you to set aside the issue of origin for just a minute. I'm not asking you to deny your belief, I'm only asking you to narrow your focus slightly. Just isolate the ideas themselves, or the claims that are represented in this set of ideas. I find it's very difficult to have a discussion with a believer because a believer often tends to back their ideas with a divine authority by citing what a prophet has said or written, a prophet who got it straight from the big guy Himself. (you did this too George). Since I don't believe in divine authority I don't know what to do with this or where to begin. We aren't starting from the same place so of course we'll never end in the same place. Which, despite our claims that we aren't trying to convince each other, I think it would feel good to come to some kind of agreement. Even if it is only partial concession.
So..I'm proposing that we find some common ground from which to start. A place where we both find agreement. I'd like to say that religion is a well polished set of ideas. Ideas that are codified and cannonized. Ideas that are well organized and protected. I'll allow for the possibility that these ideas came to men through a form of inspiration from a divine being. I don't personally believe this, but because I can't disprove it, I'll concede that it is a possiblity. But if we're looking for common ground, it is necessary for us to set aside this question of origin and focus on the ideas themselves and how one comes to adopt these ideas. That is where I' d like to start.
Sunday, December 28, 2008
Part One
Here the first part of my reply to the fictional George. I worry that because the original author isn't here, and thus cannot explain or defend himself, I may be caught in the straw man fallacy. But, I am morphing the current author with my former self and I will allow my righteous self to step in in George's defense where needed. Like I said, it wasn't that long ago that I could have been the author.
If I were to pull out all the claims made in this response and lay them all out side by side, it might look like this:
1-Sin is a valid concept. (ie...we will all eventually be held accountable to some higher authority for all our actions)
2-Jesus Christ (God) is alive and he has a church (which is the Mormon church)
3-Being selfish is a bad thing, not obeying authority is a bad thing, lust (which I'm going to interpret as desire)...is a bad thing.
4-The author of the Doctrine & Covenants (the premise of this would be a subject of disagreement...I believe it to be Joesph Smith and his lackeys....You would say it is Jesus Christ)....has the authority to define reality,...yours, mine, everyone's.
5-There are two ways of thinking....the believer's way and everyone else's. (or "our way" vs the "world's way").
6-The following practices will help me earn an eternal life (the imbeded claim here is that there is such a thing as eternal life), or at the very least, a life that is in line with the teachings of the Mormon church... prayer, following the rules (being obedient to authority), having faith,(which I define as believing in something despite the lack of tangible evidence) being humble (from my experience in the church this means to rely on and acquiese to a power greater than the self. Which seems like a beautiful concept at first, until you start thinking about how to define that power and who interprets it.)
7-Having a testimony...(which I'll define as having a belief in the teachings of the Mormon church) takes honesty.
8-Those who question the teachings of the Mormon church are probably reacting to some offense, and they should be more forgiving.
9-It is important to keep every commandment. (commandment or "the word of God" but the word of God as interpreted by whom? So ultimately who am I being obedient to?)
10-There is such a thing as priesthood, and powers of heaven and they are connected. These powers of heaven can be controlled by someone who is righteous.
So far, I'm trying to lay out what his claims are and begin to examine the underlying premises for these claims. Which I'll get into more later....
If I were to pull out all the claims made in this response and lay them all out side by side, it might look like this:
1-Sin is a valid concept. (ie...we will all eventually be held accountable to some higher authority for all our actions)
2-Jesus Christ (God) is alive and he has a church (which is the Mormon church)
3-Being selfish is a bad thing, not obeying authority is a bad thing, lust (which I'm going to interpret as desire)...is a bad thing.
4-The author of the Doctrine & Covenants (the premise of this would be a subject of disagreement...I believe it to be Joesph Smith and his lackeys....You would say it is Jesus Christ)....has the authority to define reality,...yours, mine, everyone's.
5-There are two ways of thinking....the believer's way and everyone else's. (or "our way" vs the "world's way").
6-The following practices will help me earn an eternal life (the imbeded claim here is that there is such a thing as eternal life), or at the very least, a life that is in line with the teachings of the Mormon church... prayer, following the rules (being obedient to authority), having faith,(which I define as believing in something despite the lack of tangible evidence) being humble (from my experience in the church this means to rely on and acquiese to a power greater than the self. Which seems like a beautiful concept at first, until you start thinking about how to define that power and who interprets it.)
7-Having a testimony...(which I'll define as having a belief in the teachings of the Mormon church) takes honesty.
8-Those who question the teachings of the Mormon church are probably reacting to some offense, and they should be more forgiving.
9-It is important to keep every commandment. (commandment or "the word of God" but the word of God as interpreted by whom? So ultimately who am I being obedient to?)
10-There is such a thing as priesthood, and powers of heaven and they are connected. These powers of heaven can be controlled by someone who is righteous.
So far, I'm trying to lay out what his claims are and begin to examine the underlying premises for these claims. Which I'll get into more later....
Saturday, December 27, 2008
To my dear George....
Recently I was reading the newspaper (online) about the declining rates of Mormons in Utah. A welcome trend in my opinion, I would love a little more diversity around here. (and I think many active Mormons would agree with me). I usually try to avoid this, but I found myself reading the comment section at the bottom of the article. I think the Trib and Deseret News comments are usually thoughtless, offensive and polarized dribble. I don't usually waste my time on them. But today, I got pulled in by a catchy title and ended up reading this one. (author unknown).
"The path to overcome our selfishness, disobedience, lust and other sins is a continue source of opposition. As we slip into the ways of the world, we will surely lose our ways. When we gained a testimony, It seems to take a certain amount of honesty to see the truthfulness of the fullness of the gospel. However, staying active in the true church of Jesus Christ is another story. We must endure to the end. We must keep every commandment. Everyone will get offended, and we must forgive. God lives, I have a testimony of the eternal nature of the only true church of Jesus Christ on the earth, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If you have slipped and are questioning, ponder this scripture in Section 121 of the D&C: 34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen? 35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson— 36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness. Don't give up your path to eternal life. Prayer, obedience, humility, faith can be called upon to strengthen your testimony. "
A part of me reads this and I feel an odd sense of kinship with the author. Not because I agree with any of it, but because not that long ago, I could have been the author. I feel like I understand where the person is coming from, and the feelings that motivated this comment. I don't believe this commenter is a "mindless drone" like many reading it have asserted. But I do not agree with even one line of it. In fact I think the ideas presented in this comment are dangerous. I want to break it down and explain why I think these ideas are dangerous...line by line. Respectfully. It's not that I am really all that distracted by the Mormon debate anymore, I feel like I've moved on from that. I don't think I have the ability to change anyone's mind, and I no longer concern myself with trying. I feel comfortable with where I'm at, and where I'm going. I have found beauty and meaning in my life and it is not enhanced by "being right" and proving someone else "wrong". Yet, maybe for the same reasons that compelled the author of this comment, (lets call him "George" for convenience sake.)..to write this, I too feel compelled to counter it with my own opinion. I think George is wrong. I may be wrong too. But I believe engaging in dialogue, if we follow the rules of respectful debate....will help us, if not anything more, than to at least understand where the other is coming from, even if we can't ever agree. If George is able to convince me, using logic, feeling, examples,...I would be willing to move from my opinion. I want to maintain an open mind, and if I'm wrong, I want to be shown how I'm wrong. I would hope that George would be willing to do the same. My goal however, is not to convince George of anything, more than it is to explore and challenge (or have challenged) my own viewpoint. I think the worst thing for me is to maintain a rigid stance when there is so much out there that I haven't yet considered. I'm not jumping from one ideology to another, more than I am seeking to layer my perspectives and hopefully what I will end up with is a mixture of truth. Not "objective truth" as I am very suspect of anything claiming to be objective truth. But truth that resonates for me. My own truth. Or the truth that informs my behavior. Which really, when it all comes down to it, is the only thing that I have any control over.
So George...what do you think? Do you want to play? Are you in? It will have to wait until later because I have a house full of wrapping paper to contend with. That, plus I need some time to get my thoughts lined up.
"The path to overcome our selfishness, disobedience, lust and other sins is a continue source of opposition. As we slip into the ways of the world, we will surely lose our ways. When we gained a testimony, It seems to take a certain amount of honesty to see the truthfulness of the fullness of the gospel. However, staying active in the true church of Jesus Christ is another story. We must endure to the end. We must keep every commandment. Everyone will get offended, and we must forgive. God lives, I have a testimony of the eternal nature of the only true church of Jesus Christ on the earth, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If you have slipped and are questioning, ponder this scripture in Section 121 of the D&C: 34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen? 35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson— 36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness. Don't give up your path to eternal life. Prayer, obedience, humility, faith can be called upon to strengthen your testimony. "
A part of me reads this and I feel an odd sense of kinship with the author. Not because I agree with any of it, but because not that long ago, I could have been the author. I feel like I understand where the person is coming from, and the feelings that motivated this comment. I don't believe this commenter is a "mindless drone" like many reading it have asserted. But I do not agree with even one line of it. In fact I think the ideas presented in this comment are dangerous. I want to break it down and explain why I think these ideas are dangerous...line by line. Respectfully. It's not that I am really all that distracted by the Mormon debate anymore, I feel like I've moved on from that. I don't think I have the ability to change anyone's mind, and I no longer concern myself with trying. I feel comfortable with where I'm at, and where I'm going. I have found beauty and meaning in my life and it is not enhanced by "being right" and proving someone else "wrong". Yet, maybe for the same reasons that compelled the author of this comment, (lets call him "George" for convenience sake.)..to write this, I too feel compelled to counter it with my own opinion. I think George is wrong. I may be wrong too. But I believe engaging in dialogue, if we follow the rules of respectful debate....will help us, if not anything more, than to at least understand where the other is coming from, even if we can't ever agree. If George is able to convince me, using logic, feeling, examples,...I would be willing to move from my opinion. I want to maintain an open mind, and if I'm wrong, I want to be shown how I'm wrong. I would hope that George would be willing to do the same. My goal however, is not to convince George of anything, more than it is to explore and challenge (or have challenged) my own viewpoint. I think the worst thing for me is to maintain a rigid stance when there is so much out there that I haven't yet considered. I'm not jumping from one ideology to another, more than I am seeking to layer my perspectives and hopefully what I will end up with is a mixture of truth. Not "objective truth" as I am very suspect of anything claiming to be objective truth. But truth that resonates for me. My own truth. Or the truth that informs my behavior. Which really, when it all comes down to it, is the only thing that I have any control over.
So George...what do you think? Do you want to play? Are you in? It will have to wait until later because I have a house full of wrapping paper to contend with. That, plus I need some time to get my thoughts lined up.
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