Part Two

What is an argument? Let's say an argument is a stated claim which is supported by one or more underlying premises. What are premises? How about we say that a premise is a statement meant to interpret some reality, whether true, false, or a mixture of both. When these statements are strong enough or "true" enough to support the claim, we could say that this is a valid argument, maybe we could even call it a fact. But there are number of problems that can occur when making an argument. There could be factual errors, a misrepresentation of data, facts and details. Or there could be errors in reasoning, or how we manipulate and combine the supportive statements and the conclusions we draw from them. Errors in logical reasoning seem to be so easy to make but so hard to recognize.

But one could make the argument that when discussing things of a spiritual, religious, or metaphysical nature, logic need not be part of the equation. Faith is not limited by logical constraints. Faith is much larger than this. Faith is transcendent. Faith is all encompassing. Faith exists even in the heart of a disbeliever. Remember..there ain't no atheists in a foxhole. Therefore, faith claims do not have to play by the same rules as do the secular claims.

To this I would say...nice try George.

A claim is a claim is a claim....and logic belongs in the debate regardless of whether you are arguing for cold fusion, or Heavenly Mother. State your claim and support it with what lead you to this conclusion. If it is solid, it will withstand the harshest scrutiny.

But there are problems with differing opinions on what is considering factual statements when it comes to religious claims. Largely because what is considered truthful by the faithful is not measurable or observable. This is where that concept of faith sneaks back in and when religion lays down the trump card, the get out of jail free card...the "I don't need no stinkin' logic because I feel the burning bosom" card. But still, before the burning bosom, some idea was articulated either verbally or in written form to you and it made it's way into your cranium. This idea bounced around in there, the brain held it out, studied it, made associations with it and decided it was good which stimulated the emotional brain to send out the feel good stuff. Maybe it decided it was good because this message has been repeated over and over and over to you since you were born. Maybe it decided it was good because the person who delivered the idea was someone you love and trust and this benevolance was transferred to the idea. Maybe it decided it was good because you are bathed in a culture that thinks this idea is a good thing. Or maybe the idea makes sense to you and fulfills a need in you, maybe it helps you lead a better life. Maybe life would be better or easier for you if this idea was good. Or...maybe it is as you have suggested..the idea itself is good, true and real.

I'd like to ask you George to set aside the view of your religion as a set of principles dictated to man from God, and consider that religion is in essense a set of ideas. A set of ideas that you believe have come from God. You can still hold that belief. But I'm asking you to set aside the issue of origin for just a minute. I'm not asking you to deny your belief, I'm only asking you to narrow your focus slightly. Just isolate the ideas themselves, or the claims that are represented in this set of ideas. I find it's very difficult to have a discussion with a believer because a believer often tends to back their ideas with a divine authority by citing what a prophet has said or written, a prophet who got it straight from the big guy Himself. (you did this too George). Since I don't believe in divine authority I don't know what to do with this or where to begin. We aren't starting from the same place so of course we'll never end in the same place. Which, despite our claims that we aren't trying to convince each other, I think it would feel good to come to some kind of agreement. Even if it is only partial concession.

So..I'm proposing that we find some common ground from which to start. A place where we both find agreement. I'd like to say that religion is a well polished set of ideas. Ideas that are codified and cannonized. Ideas that are well organized and protected. I'll allow for the possibility that these ideas came to men through a form of inspiration from a divine being. I don't personally believe this, but because I can't disprove it, I'll concede that it is a possiblity. But if we're looking for common ground, it is necessary for us to set aside this question of origin and focus on the ideas themselves and how one comes to adopt these ideas. That is where I' d like to start.